Fall 2004 LA C-14 Oct - Nov Exchanges

11-10-04: student drawing inspired by the Odyssey

Dear Prof. Nagy,

Inspired by Odysseus multiple adventures at sea, I made a drawing four years ago. Imprisoned in Calypso’s island, he is sitting on a rock by the sea, looking at the horizon and thinking about his nostos. Since the original drawing is in my home in Albania, I would like to send you a virtual copy as a sign of my appreciation for your class and for your beautiful lectures.

Best, Bora

Click to view a jpg image of Bora's drawing

Dear wonderful Bora,

what a beautiful rendition! I am taking the liberty of sharing not only with the Teaching Fellows and with our Webmaster, Mark, but also with my colleagues at the CHS. Is there any way we could “publish” this work of yours on our website? Anyhow, you made your teacher very proud and happy.

Warmest regards,
GN

11-10-04: on agônes of athletes

Hi Professor Nagy,

I had a few random thoughts as I was watching and reading about the World Series a while back. I hope you enjoy them:

In reading some of the journalistic reporting of the events of these games, I was struck by the connection between the attitude of the athletes and the audience toward the struggles of competition. These athletes become larger than life, and the more difficulties they have to overcome the more they are praised, and dare I say, worshiped for their labors. I remember the 1997 Chicago Bulls finals against Utah, in game 5 Michael Jordan was struck down with a bout of stomach flu the day of the game, and was so weak and dehydrated he practically had to be carried on to the court. But as soon as he stepped onto the court he played as a man possessed, scoring 45 points. What stayed so clear in my memory was the comment that someone made later, with awe and reverence in their voice, that no matter how sick he was, when he faced the opposite team he ceased to merely an ill individual, but Air Jordan, God disguised in baggy shorts. I also remember getting chills while watching the game itself. I saw a direct parallel to Hero culture and cults in the idea of becoming a quasi-supernatural force in the moment of crisis under the stress of competition or warfare, and idea that the labors of an athlete can become something all-consuming and almost sacred in that moment of climax. Even the athletes themselves unknowingly describe this moment of culmination in their lives in terms of Greek hero culture. After Curt Schilling delivered an amazing pitching effort with a bloody ankle that he could barely walk on, he describes the day as “And, I mean, I can't explain it. I wish I could explain the day I just experienced. It's just the most amazing day of my life." Not the most articulate expression of his feelings, but the sentiment is clear – some force took a hold of him and carried him through. Perhaps the reason that pro-sports, despite the sordid scandals and materialistic excesses that often accompany them, still can bring people to such extreme emotional highs and lows merely through witnessing labors of these athletes in competition because it is tapping into some deep fundamental connection we still have with the Greek world of heroes. It is the closest to war that most of us come close to in our lives – the kind of war that fights for honor and kleos rather than for land or greed, and touches a chord (pun intended) within us that goes back to the Greek songs.

Also, I’m not sure if you mentioned the special exhibition on Games for the Gods: The Greek Athlete and the Olympic Spirit at the Museum of Fine Arts in class, but in any case I’m planning on going, it should be really interesting.

Annie Zhang

Dear Annie,

this is a beautiful formulation. I’m sharing not only with the Teaching Fellows and Mark, our Webmaster, but also with Mary Ebbott, a former Head TF (now a professor at Holy Cross) and a fellow Red Sox fan. Maybe you will allow us to publish your piece on our website?

Warmest regards,
GN

11-2-04: cognate themes in Greek and Indian epic

Hi Professor Nagy,

I'm a Senior in your Heroes class and I had a question for you that has been on my mind for a while now. When I was reading the Odyssey (specifically, the scene when Odysseus dressed as the beggar strings the bow and shoots the arrow through the line of axes), I noticed a strong parallel between it and the Hindu epic, the Mahabharatha. There is a very similar scene in this Hindu epic. One of the five princes, Arjuna, is disguised as a priest because he, his brothers, and his mother are all in exile (his father died and his evil uncle sent them away...I can check...it has been many years since I read this). He comes to another King's court on a day when the King is trying to choose a suitor for his daughter, Draupadi. The king says that whoever can string his bow and shoot an arrow into the eye of a golden fish that is circling on the ceiling (and the archer cannot look directly at the fish, he must look at the fish via its reflection in a pool of water) will marry his daughter. All the suitors laugh when Arjuna, who is dressed as a priest, goes to string the bow...in any case, he does it and wins Draupadi's hand in marriage. I don't have a text of the story at hand, but I just found it really interesting that Odysseus who is also in disguise strings his own bow and shoots through the arrows to signal his arrival and win his house/family back. I'm sure there are further implications from both these events on their respective storylines that are similar, but since I don't remember a lot of the details, I can't identify them yet...however, do you think that this is significant?

Sincerely,
Asha

Dear Asha,

I'm so glad you pointed out this parallel. Such parallelisms result from the fact, as I see it, that the Greek and Indic epic traditions are actually cognate. I'm publishing in Blackwell's Companion to Ancient Epic my basic findings on this subject, and I'm sharing with you the latest version of my text. With your permission, we could post this exchange on the Heroes website?

Warm regards,
GN

10-20-04: a question

Professor Nagy:

This is Stephanie Lawrence, and I just have a question about a point that you mentioned last night. You said that the reason why the main character of the movie didn't tell people who he was is because he had to test them, and also because he had to be tested by the plot. The part that I don't understand is, why does a main character (or hero) have to be tested by the plot? Maybe I misinterpreted your words, or maybe I'm just not fully understanding the concept, but I would be extremely grateful if you could clarify this for me.

Thank you very much,
Stephanie

Dear Stephanie,

Thank you for your question!

My point was made in a larger context. I was saying that many forms of traditional literature operate in such a way that the character cannot be independent of the plot. We moderns often assume that the character can indeed be independent. I hope that helps. May I "publish" our exchange on the Heroes website? I think it might be useful to other students.

Warm regards,
GN

10-20-04: athletic 'sudden death'

Dear Professor Nagy,

I had just one quick thought, somewhat unrelated to the lecture: the chariot races appear to be dangerous and potentially a cause of death, which seems a bit ironic in light of the fact that they are trying to remember the dead through this ritual--almost that it would pepetuate the circle of "death, funereal remembrance, death." Am I assuming too much about the chariot races or is this partially true? Thank you again for the opportunity and looking forward to Dialogue 8!

Abby

Dear Abby,

Your observation about athletic "sudden death" as a compensation for heroic death is right on the mark (no pun intended, re sema).

Warm regards,
GN

10-19-04: Chunhyang

Dear Prof. Gnagy,

Here's the website I found for Chunhyang: www.lot47.com/chunhyang. If you click on Synopsis, there is a link to Multimedia files with clips and stills! Yay!

Hope to see you Friday!

Sincerely yours,
Kleio

Dear Kleio,

thank you so much! I'm sharing with Mark for posting. Gratefully,

10-17-04: Three General Questions about the Iliad

Hi Professor Nagy,

My name is Ben Tseng, and I'm a sophomore in your Greek Heroes class. There are a few questions I've been meaning to ask you about the Iliad that I never got around to. Here they are:

1) If Achilles is a derivative of "akhos" and "laos" (sp??), does Hektor's name or Andromache's or Astyanax's name have any special meaning?

2) I have oftentimes read Zeus described as "mighty" or "all-knowing" or "all-seeing" -- are these appellations meant sarcastically? Its quite apparent that Zeus isn't so mighty that everyone always obeys him. Its also quite apparent that he isn't all-knowing or all-seeing or else Hera couldn't have tricked him as many times as she has (ie Herakles' birth and forcing Zeus into sleep so Poseidon could attack Hektor)?

3) Do you think Homer was anti-war? Although the culture as a whole values its warriors and hunters, the Iliad doesn't seem to be very pro-war. We see that the deaths of many are subject to the whims of both kings and Gods. We see that even heroes have ambiguous moralities -- Achilles is a hero, but I'm quite sure most people (even Greeks) would have found his behavior revolting and childish at best. Diomedes for instance told some Trojan soldier (can't recall his name) that he would not kill him, but that there were plenty of other Greeks for that soldier to kill and plenty of other Trojans for himself to kill as if the actual side of the war didn't matter with regards to their individual moralities. There is no doubt that Achilles and Hektor and Sarpedon acted heroically by virtue of their deeds, but no so much as the side which they were on. It is as if the war itself was ridiculous to Homer -- where great deeds occurred, no doubt, but the slaughter was detestable and there was substantial ambiguity as to who was correct or "on the side of the angels"

I'd appreciate your thoughts on these subjects. I look forward to seeing you on Monday in class.

Thank you for your time,
--Ben

Dear Ben,

Interesting questions.

1) Hektor means 'he who wards off [e.g. attacking forces]': so his name "programs" him to be a defensive rather than offensive warrior. A question for you to ponder: how does the meaning of his name play out in the Iliad? Astyanax means 'king of the city' - there is an allusion to this meaning in Iliad VI. I write about this in my book _Best of the Achaeans_. Andromache is composed of andro- 'man' and -makhE 'battle'; the syntactical relationship of the two compound elements is unclear, but the name seems to convey "Amazon"-like qualities. In other epic traditions, there is more emphasis on her knowledge of military strategy. There is an allusion to this theme in Iliad VI.

2) The epithets of Zeus are hardly sarcastic. The characterizations of the Homeric gods in the Homeric poems are influenced by cultural politics. Each community had its own ways of worshipping e.g. Zeus, and these religious differences tend to get screened out by Panhellenic poetry. What is left after the screening is not an accurate religious picture. Have a look at my remarks on Greek "religion" in the five-minute Appendix.

3) The criterion "anti-war" seems to me anachronistic. Homeric poetry is a beautiful recognition of the human condition, and

I think that is what you are picking up in the examples you cite. All of them are very interesting to me. I hope these remarks are helpful. Would it be OK if we publish our exchange on the Heroes website?

Best regards,
GN

10-16-04: kleos?

Hi Professor Nagy,

I was just starting to read the Odyssey and came across something interesting that I wanted to ask about. In Scroll iii, page 241 line 81, Telemakhos says to Nestor "I seek new [kleos] of my unhappy father Odysseus...." I thought kleos referred to glory/song of glory. Is this usage of the word as "news" mean that Telemakhos is expecting to hear a song of glory about how his father fell in battle? Or is this just another way of translating the word? It just seems odd because it is a word with so much power and importance in the Iliad-- especially with all the plays on the names of Patroklos and Kleopatra. Oh incidentally, that brings up another question I had: Kleopatra is also named Alcyone (right?) Why do people have so many names? (Paris also Alexander) etc. Moreover, it sometimes seems that the names are too fittingly tailored to the disposition of the character or to his/her place in the story (ie Patroklos and Kleopatra, Achilles). Are names constructed after the fact (akin to the way Jesus renames Saul Peter to be the "rock" of the church-- yes, I took English Bible last year :) or is it just happy coincidence?

Thanks!
Best, Dina

Dear Dina,

Excellent questions. On kleos in the Odyssey... Yes, there are situations where the word seems to mean merely 'that which is heard', that is, 'news'. But that is because any 'news' reported within the kleos of epic is by extension kleos in its own right. Similarly in Herodotus, where the medium calls itself apodexis 'making public', anything that is done is simultaneously 'made public' because the things done are being reported within the apodexis of history. The framing medium can define the media within the frame. As for names... The characters of epic - as also most heroes - are not "real" people. They are creations of the song culture that are real to those who are in the song culture; but for people like you and me, who are outsiders looking in, as it were, on the song culture, they are "myths." This is not a negative description: on the contrary, it is very positive. In the song culture of the ancient Greeks, myth was a way of conveying reality - especially moral reality - through storytelling. It's not empirical truth as we know it, but it's notional truth.

Warm regards,
GN

Dear Professor, Sure, though I guess I sound kind of silly-- of course they're mythical, I guess I just didn't think about it. Hmmmm. It's odd, we just talk about them so much they seem real. Isn't there that whole big thing about trying to find where the real Troy was? Mycenae and all the cities in the Iliad did exist though right? Did people in Ancient Greece actually believe that Achilles et al existed? I mean, they would have to right? Otherwise it would mean that the gods as they knew them were fictive as well? I had this idea from somewhere (not sure where) that the Greeks derived a lot of what they knew about their gods from the Homeric epics but that could probably be a completely false assumption on my part... what was the role then of these two epics in terms of the Greek people's understanding of the Gods?

Thanks,
Dina

Dear Dina, You shouldn't feel bad about your question. It was not silly at all. And yes, Troy and Mycenae and most other places mentioned in Homeric poetry are "real." And yes, Homeric poetry is a primary source of mythology for the Greeks of the Classical period. As I said at the beginning of the course, Herodotus is on the right track when he says that Hesiod and Homer represent for the Greeks the basic values of civilization.

Warm regards,
GN

10-12-04: the signifigance of the number four

Professor Nagy,

I was just wondering what the significance of the number four is in Greek Literature – it seems that four is a very important number in the Iliad. Patroclus is swatted by Apollo on the fourth time that he is equal to the daimon, Hector is chased by Achilles around the wall four times before Hector gains the composure to meet him in battle. There is another occasion that I know I am overlooking but has been in the reading recently. What are you thoughts on this? Is there something special about tetaros??

Just wondering,
Nick Downing

Dear Nick,

Glad to hear from you. And good question. The thing about the symbolism of numbers – even in one culture at one time and one place – is that whatever works in one context may not work in another. The special meanings of numbers are very context-bound and cannot be universalized. That doesn’t mean, however, that we can’t connect e.g. the 4x onslaught by Patroklos with the 4x pursuit of Hektor. Very interesting. I need to ponder that further.

Warm regards,
GN

Hi everyone!

I thought I'd add a few thoughts, because a lot of students often ask about the significance of various numbers...
I totally agree with Prof. Nagy that it is almost impossible to find any 'numerological' significance to numbers of these sorts. The number 12 is also, for some reason, very significant in Greek culture, but who could say why that is or what it means. As far as the 4x pattern of repetition is concerned, I would point out that the number 3 is extremely common in the folklore of many cultures as the number of repetitions necessary to establish something as a recurrent pattern. (Twice seems like just coincidence, but the third time is the charm.) But notice that in the 4x pattern, what is emphasized is exactly the difference of the fourth time: Patroklos is attacked and rebuffed three times, but the FOURTH time... So it seems to me like the 4x pattern is a way of emphasizing the significance and singularity of whatever happens that fourth time--in other words, it's a technique for building suspense. (Or like the 'priamel' structure we discussed in class.)
Also, just for your own entertainment, Nick, I thought I'd add that the number 4 was EXTREMELY important in Pythagorean numerology. The key is that if you make an equilateral triangle out of dots arranged in four rows, like this:
.
. .
. . .
. . . .

you end up with 10 dots; that is, 1 + 2 +3 + 4 = 10, and 10 is a perfect number in Pythagorean thinking. Pythagoras called this geometrical pattern the "tetraktys." Those first four integers are like basic elements of the universe, and they also relate to musical theory. Here's a quote from the Oxford Classical Dictionary's entry on Pythagoras which explains the whole thing:
The scientific tradition ascribes to Pythagoras a number of important discoveries, including the famous geometric theorem that still bears his name. Even more significant for Pythagorean thought is the discovery of the musical consonances: the ratios 2 : 1, 3 : 2, and 4 : 3 representing the length of strings corresponding to the octave and the basic harmonies (the fifth and the fourth). These ratios are displayed in the tetractys, an equilateral triangle composed of 10 dots; the Pythagoreans swear an oath by Pythagoras as author of the tetractys. The same ratios are presumably reflected in the music of the spheres, which Pythagoras alone was said to hear.

Hope you find that interesting, Nick.
Dave

Greg, Dave,

I hesitate to read too much into the significance of such a small detail in a poet so long as the Iliad, but on the way to my chemistry review session plus with the help of the internet, I thought a few more instances where four is important in the Iliad. There are four winds, right?? I suppose this might have some navigational significance. There are four seasons in a year. Since opa (ora) means the same as the hora of a hero, this might be interesting. Another interesting angle is that there are four rivers in Hades, right? - Styx, Acheron and another two that I cant remember. Since the Iliad is closely related with going to the underworld, this might be interesting. It seems that any time one of our hero does something for a fourth time, a death is brought about, hence a connection to the four rivers of Hades.

Just a thought,
Nick

PS Go ahead a publish this