Fall 2007 LA C-14 November Exchanges

On Nov 29 Katherine Rippe wrote:

Hi Professor Nagy,

When you mentioned Oedipus extinguishing his eyesight at the end of last lecture, it reminded me of Latin phrasing. Often "lumen" is used as metonymy for eyes. This seems fitting, as you mentioned, because mortals have a trace of divinity or celestial light within them.

Thank you,
Katherine

Professor Nagy replied:

Dear Katherine,
You are absolutely right! Thank you for making this incisive observation. I'm cc-ing Mark, our webmaster, asking him to publish this exchange on the Heroes website.
Gratefully,
GN

On Nov 26 Katherine Sengoba wrote:

Professor Nagy,

I had a question about something you said in lecture today. You talked about how Oedipus donates his body to the Athenians. In relation to the hero cult, does the hero normally "donate" their body? I ask this because, I thought, from past examples of the hero cult- examples in the Illiad, these heroes bodies or sema were not made into a hero-cult as the result of the hero giving the uninitiated their body, but instead, the uninitiated assuminng the body as something to be honored/worshiped, and by doing so, the hero-cult comes into existence. Another way that I've looked at it, is that the hero-cult was something that just existed, that is the body of the hero was always intended to be honored, the idea that the hero is hero in life and into death. I got the sense tht Oedipus essentially made himself a hero at the end? What i mean is that for other examples of hero-cult, i felt that there was always a separation between the initiated and uninitiated, but with Oedipus its as though he went from uninitiated to initiated, rather than always being part of those that are initiated.

Hopefully this all makes sense or you could better explain it to me/refer me to text that may provide some more insight,

-Katherine Sengoba

Professor Nagy replied:

Dear Katherine and Mark and the TFs

Thank you for this engaging question. I agree that Oedipus in this narrative is more active than passive in becoming a cult hero, as if by choice. Myths about the foundation of hero cult come in a variety of forms. In terms of this particular myth, the cult-hero has to be initiated in his own right, as you noticed. May I share our exchange with the rest of the class? If so, I would ask our webmaster Mark to publish the exchange on our Heroes website.

Warm regards,
GN

On Nov 27 Sergio Martinez wrote:

Dear Prof. Nagy,

I just want to relate to you an occurrence that took place in other class that made me realize how much I have learned in yours.

I am taking Moral Reasoning 22: Justice with Prof. Michael Sandel. At this moment we are discussing Aristotle and his theories of moral reasoning. Prof. Sandel introduced the concept of 'teleological' reasoning to describe Aristotle's way of thought. As you surely know, Aristotle said that the political offices should be distributed to those with the apparent virtous civic qualities because it was the purpose (or 'telos') of the polis to encourage the citizens to lead a virtuous life.

When I heard Prof. Sandel refer to the word teleology and that it derived from 'telos,' I immediately grasped the meaning without him needing to explain the concept further.

I just wanted to point out this annecdote because I think that many times we forget how the concepts we learn from ancient Greek literature still have a resonance on other subject matters.

Have a nice day!
-Sergio

Professor Nagy replied:

Dear Sergio and hi to the TFs and Mark,

Your message made me so happy. Thank you for sharing it. If you think it's a good idea, may I share it with the whole class via the Heroes website? I'm cc-ing Mark our webmaster, in case you decide to go ahead.

Warm regards,
GN

On Nov 22 Ipek Yakupog wrote:

Dear Professor Nagy,

I just finished watching Big Fish (2003) directed by Tim Burton and based on thenovel by Daniel Wallace. I guess you woulalready have watched this movie but Iwas utterly amazed to find out that the movie tied so well with what we havelearned inclass in the first part of the semester. In case you have notwatched it, the movie tells the story of a son trying to discoverwhether thestories that his father, now on the verge of death, told him for so many yearswere real or make-believe. Ithink that the closing lines of the movie are themost striking, reminding of the medium-story mergence:"The man tells hisstories so many times that he becomes his stories. They liveon after him. And that way he becomes immortal."

Have a wonderful Thanksgiving!
Best,
Ipek

Professor Nagy replied:

Dear Ipek,

I'm so glad you alerted me to this film. Actually, I have not yet seen it, but now I plan to. May I share this exchange with the rest of the class? When our webmaster Mark comes back on Sunday, he could post our exchange.

Hopefully,
GN

On Nov 21 Isabel Koster wrote:

Dear Greg,

For a possibly even more terrifying version of "Der Hölle Rache" than Bergman's see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp6DFkWUsbc (this is from the 2003 [I think] Covent Garden production). I am not suggesting it as a replacement for the Bergman-- and not just because there are no subtitles-- but it is fun to watch. I also tried finding a good image of Karl Friedrich Schinkel's original stage design for the scene, but apparently only the queen's rather glittery appearance in the first act has made it on the internet.

Best wishes,
Isabel

Professor Nagy replied:

Dear Isabel,

I just love this version! And I'm intrigued by the "widow's peak" effect! I bet Diana Damrau doesn't have hair like that in "real life"! I think we should share with the whole class. When Mark comes back, he could post this exchange of ours for the students.

I'm also cc-ing Shamira Muhammad, and intern at the Center, who knows how to make subtitles for clips. Dear Shamira, wouldn't this be a great project for you, to subtitle this particular Queen of the Night?

As ever,
Greg

On Nov 16 Irina Perjar wrote:

Dear Professor Nagy,

After lecture on Wednesday I was able to figure out something that has been bothering me for a few years. I'm a big ABBA fan (and know pretty much every song they ever recorded), but I could never figure out what their song "Cassandra" was about. It's a rather bizarre song if you don't put it in the correct context. After focusing on Cassandra in class, I finally made the
connection that should probably have been obvious a few lectures ago. The song is about Cassandra being taken from Troy after the fall of the city. Here are the lyrics (although the melody is also quite good):

Cassandra
(B. Andersson/B. Ulvaeus) 1982
Down in the street they're all singing and shouting
Staying alive though the city is dead
Hiding their shame behind hollow laughter
while you are crying alone on your bed
Pity, Cassandra that no one believed you
But then again you were lost from the start
Now we must suffer and sell our secrets
Bargain, playing smart, aching in our hearts
Sorry Cassandra I misunderstood
now the last day is dawning
Some of us wanted but none of us would
listen to words of warning
But on the darkest of nights
nobody knew how to fight
and we were caught in our sleep
Sorry Cassandra I didn't believe you really had the power
I only saw it as dreams you would weave
Until the final hour
So in the morning your ship will be sailing
Now that your father and sister are gone
there is no reason for you linger
You're grieving deeply but still moving on
You know the future is casting a shadow
No one else sees it, but you know your fate
Packing your bags, being slow and thorough
Knowing though you're late that ship is sure to wait
Sorry Cassandra I misunderstood
now the last day is dawning
Some of us wanted but none of us would
listen to words of warning
But on the darkest of nights
Nobody knew how to fight
And we were caught in out sleep
Sorry Cassandra I didn't believe you really had the power
I only saw it as dreams you would weave
Until the final hour
I watched her ship leaving harbor at sunrise
sails almost slack in the cool morning rain
She stood on deck, just a tiny figure
Rigid and restrained, blue eyes filled with pain
Sorry Cassandra I misunderstood
now the last day is dawning
Some of us wanted but none of us would
listen to words of warning
But on the darkest of nights
Nobody knew how to fight
And we were caught in out sleep
Sorry Cassandra I didn't believe you really had the power
I only saw it as dreams you would weave
Until the final hour
(I'm sorry Cassandra)

I especially like the "No one else sees it, but you know your fate" part.

Have a wonderful weekend!
Irina

Professor Nagy replied:

My dear Irina,

Thank you so much for sharing this. May I share with the whole class? If you say yes, it will make me very happy. Cc-d is our webmaster, Mark. If you agree, then Mark can publish our exchange on the Heroes website. Write back to us, cc Mark, OK?

Gratefully,
GN

On Nov 16 Sanjey Sivanesan wrote:

Hi Professor Nagy,

Just a completely random email I thought you might enjoy...
This just showed up in Gmail as the quote of the day:
Quote of the Day - Napoleon Bonaparte - "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
Obviously a pithy take on kleos, but I thought you'd enjoy that!

Have a great weekend,
Sanjey

Professor Nagy replied:

Dear Sanjey

I love it! May I share this exchange with the rest of the class? If you're game, just write back with cc to Mark, our webmaster, and he can publish it on the exchanges page.
Gratefully,
GN

On Nov 13 Michael Cupelli wrote:

Hey Professor Nagy,

I was just reading Agamemnon by Aeschylus and I noticed that at least 2 of the words for "signal" have been translated differently. Before reading this, if I had to assign a word to "signal" or "sign," I would have said sema. However, in the first instance on page 9 between lines 5 and 10, the word used for signal is "sumbolon." Then, in line 25, the word translated as signal is "semainein." At least in the latter, I can see sema as a root. Either way, I was wondering why all these different words are used to represent "signal" and if there are subtle contextual differences between them.

Thanks,
Mike

Professor Nagy replied:

Dear Mike,

Beautiful question!
Whereas a sêma is a 'sign' that stands for something else (or, better, sêmata are a set of 'signs' that stand for a a set of things), a sumbolon is 'sign' that exists as 'piece of the puzzle', as it were. You need to see a coming together of sumbola to achieve a meaning. More later.

Warm regards,
GN

On Nov 6 Arjun Suri wrote:

Dear Professor Nagy,

I wanted to ask remind you of my question: do both heroes and readers go through the process of initiation?

I look forward to chatting more,
Arjun

Professor Nagy replied:

Dear Arjun,

I really like this question, and I'm glad you are willing to share it with your fellow students. Unless I hear from you otherwise, Mark will be publishing our exchange.

Here is my answer, in brief.
The narratives about heroes are to be "read" by us the same way as the heroes "read" the signs that lead them in various directions in their narrative. For example, the way Odysseus in disguise "reads" the characters he encounters corresponds to the way we "read" those same characters - and Odysseus himself. In ancient Greek, the word anagignôskein means not only to 'recognize' a character, that is, to understand who the character really is. It means also to 'read' a text!

Best regards,
GN

On Nov 5 Lucas Abraham Paul wrote:

Prof. Nagy,

I asked you after class about the different approaches to dike and "hero-completion" that were mentioned briefly in your lecture today.

Specifically, if Odysseus was compromising and wavering in his morality and judgments, and Achilles was the exact opposite in being uncompromising, how do both heroes still end up at "dike"? It seems like diametrically opposite paths both lead to the same end for our two heroes.

Thank you,
Lucas Paul
(I hope I restated the question accurately enough!)

Professor Nagy replied:

Dear Lucas,

Thank you for repeating this question, which is a most useful one for all the students, I think. So I am asking Mark to post this exchange, as you and I had agreed viva voce.

As I said to you after class and I repeat now, the Iliad and the Odyssey are different but complementary ways of looking at life in general - not only at heroes in particular. These two epics are two sides of the same coin, as it were. The monolithic Achilles and the polytropic Odysseus are two alternative models for imagining a successful way to go through life - and to achieve a morally cohesive "story," which is what dikê is all about.

Best regards,
GN

On Nove 1 Nick Nehamas wrote:

Dear Professor Nagy,

I just wanted to let you know how much I've been enjoying your Heroes
course so far this term. It was actually on the recommendation of your
friend Professor Stephen Mitchell (who,very luckily, is my academic adviser)
that I decided to throw caution to the wind and take nothing but courses in
the Humanities for the fall semester. I am writing to you specifically,
though, because I came across this poem by the modern Greek poet C.P. Cavafy
(found here: http://ithaca.rice.edu/kz/Misc/Ithaka.html ) and it struck me
as extremely relevant to our discussion of the Odyssey. Perhaps you've
encountered it before:

As you set out for Ithaka
hope your road is a long one,
full of adventure, full of discovery.
Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
angry Poseidon-don't be afraid of them:
you'll never find things like that on your way
as long as you keep your thoughts raised high,
as long as a rare excitement
stirs your spirit and your body.
Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
wild Poseidon-you won't encounter them
unless you bring them along inside your soul,
unless your soul sets them up in front of you.

Hope your road is a long one.
May there be many summer mornings when,
with what pleasure, what joy,
you enter harbors you're seeing for the first time;
may you stop at Phoenician trading stations
to buy fine things,
mother of pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
sensual perfume of every kind-
as many sensual perfumes as you can;
and may you visit many Egyptian cities
to learn and go on learning from their scholars.

Keep Ithaka always in your mind.
Arriving there is what you're destined for.
But don't hurry the journey at all.
Better if it lasts for years,
so you're old by the time you reach the island,
wealthy with all you've gained on the way,
not expecting Ithaka to make you rich.
Ithaka gave you the marvelous journey.
Without her you wouldn't have set out.
She has nothing left to give you now. And if you find her poor, Ithaka
won't have fooled you.

Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,
you'll have understood by then what these Ithakas mean.
Actually, on second thought, it is not one of my absolute favorite Cavafy
poems. It somehow lacks the lyric subtlety that makes his work--where things
are so often understood rather than stated--elusive and worth the reader's
time. But he still grasps the most crucial aspect of the Odyssey (one which,
I'll confess, I had never understood the importance of before this class):
that Odysseus' nostos is more than a simple homecoming. It is even more than
an emotional journey. It is, at heart, about the idea of noos. And, as you
said in class on Wednesday, only through his wanderings can Odysseus
understand how the minds of others work and, so, how his own works as well.
Cavafy captures this perfectly. He also, now that I think about it, owes a
lot to Sappho in his best poems. Well, I hope over the next few years I'll
learn to read both poets (ancient and modern) in the original!

Best,
Nick Nehamas

Professor Nagy replied:

Dear wonderful Nick,

This is beautiful! May I share this exchange with Mark, our webmaster, so
that we may publish it on the heroes website?

Warm regards,
Greg

p.s.: when I asked whether any of the 300 students is Greek, I was hoping
you would raise your hand! I am very amused: it reminds me of Odysseus in
disguise! I will make a deal with you: I will play along with your Odyssean
disguise until you choose the time and place of your self-revelation!